Update
If you are trying to check whether your computer has the same memory issues that my laptop had, please be aware that Windows Vista may not display the correct amount of available memory. Please see my related post “Vista reports inaccurate available memory” for details on how to get the amount of memory really available to Windows Vista.
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Update
As a result of the problems with the CX210X, a class action lawsuit against Gateway is initiating. The law firm of Shepherd Finkelman Miller & Shah is handling claims of the possible class. If anyone is interested in sharing their experiences regarding RAM related capability in the CX210X or any other computer, you should contact Nathan Zipperian at 1-877-891-9880 or nzipperian@sfmslaw.com.
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Background
First a little background…. I purchased a Gateway CX210X convertible notebook in August of 2006. One of the reasons I purchased this notebook was because at the time it was one of the only Tablet PCs that supported a 64-bit processor and “supported” 4 GB of RAM. The system shipped with a Core 2 Duo processor, 2 GB of RAM, and Windows XP Tablet edition. Well, I knew, Windows XP Tablet Edition is a 32-bit version of Windows XP, so I knew it would not make all 4 GB or RAM available to me, so I bought the system with only 2 GB of RAM. When Vista came out, I got Vista x64 because it was a 64-bit OS and had the Tablet PC extensions I needed for my tablet. I also purchased two 2 GB memory modules that met the specifications for the system (DDR2 SO-DIMM, PC2 5300, Dual Channel). I plugged in the memory, saw it detected in the BIOS setup screen, and booted up the computer. I opened up the Vista task manager expecting to see 4096 MB (4 GB) of total memory, but I only saw 3070 MB (3 GB).
Tracking down the missing RAM
I could not figure out what was going on. I had (or thought I had) all the components needed to get 4 GB of usable RAM out of my notebook. The notebook was advertised as supporting 4 GB of RAM after all.
I text-chatted with several Gateway tech support representatives about my issue. The reps were just shy of useless. It seemed to me that their sole function was to find someone other than Gateway to hold responsible for the issue I had with their notebook.
I had to dig around the BIOS settings myself to disable the quite boot mode so that the BIOS post would show me that only 3 GB of RAM passed the boot-time memory test. When I saw this my hopes were momentarily raised as I thought the solution to my problems was as simple as getting a replacement memory module. Unfortunately I tested each module individually and with other modules. There were no issues with the modules. For some reason the BIOS was only able to access 3 GB of the installed 4 GB of memory. Again, I had to figure this out on my own. The tech support reps had no clue.
The last Gateway rep with whom I chatted said that I needed to talk to Microsoft because the problem was with Vista. I was doubtful but I wanted to keep an open mind and my hopes alive. I did some research online and came to a knowledgebase article Microsoft posted regarding systems that would not have all 4 GB of memory available to Vista. The article is available here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605. The article stated that there are a number of hardware and software factors that need to come together in order for Vista to make use of all 4 GB of RAM in a system. One of the main components that Microsoft listed was the system chipset. Here is the an excerpt from the article:
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For Windows Vista to use all 4 GB of memory on a computer that has 4 GB of memory installed, the computer must meet the following requirements:
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The chipset must support at least 8 GB of address space. Chipsets that have this capability include the following:
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The CPU must support the x64 instruction set. The AMD64 CPU and the Intel EM64T CPU support this instruction set. |
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The BIOS must support the memory remapping feature. The memory remapping feature allows for the segment of system memory that was previously overwritten by the Peripheral Component Interconnect (PCI) configuration space to be remapped above the 4 GB address line. This feature must be enabled in the BIOS configuration utility on the computer. View your computer product documentation for instructions that explain how to enable this feature. Many consumer-oriented computers may not support the memory remapping feature. No standard terminology is used in documentation or in BIOS configuration utilities for this feature. Therefore, you may have to read the descriptions of the various BIOS configuration settings that are available to determine whether any of the settings enable the memory remapping feature. |
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An x64 (64-bit) version of Windows Vista must be used. |
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I have a CPU that supports the x64 instruction set specified in the second bullet, and I had installed an x64 version of Vista on my tablet. That takes care of bullets 2 and 4, but I did not see anywhere in the Phoenix BIOS that referred to memory remapping mentioned in the third bullet. Notice that the Intel 945 GM chipset is not listed in the first bullet. The Microsoft article further states:
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Note When the physical RAM that is installed on a computer equals the address space that is supported by the chipset, the total system memory that is available to the operating system is always less than the physical RAM that is installed. For example, consider a computer that has an Intel 975X chipset that supports 8 GB of address space. If you install 8 GB of RAM, the system memory that is available to the operating system will be reduced by the PCI configuration requirements. In this scenario, PCI configuration requirements reduce the memory that is available to the operating system by an amount that is between approximately 200 MB and approximately 1 GB. The reduction depends on the configuration.
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Eureka!
Bingo. That certainly sounds like my situation. That’s why I said earlier that the Gateway tech support was just shy of useless and not completely useless. They did set me on the path to finding the Microsoft knowledgebase article that pointed the problem of the missing operating system RAM to the chipset that Gateway was using in this laptop.
Apparently this is a well known fact in the computer hardware field, though I did not know about it. What’s worse, is that looking at computer web sites now, there is no easy way to determine if a system I buy today will leave me in the same predicament. Does a new Gateway / HP / IBM / Dell laptop that claims to support 4 GB or RAM really support that or only halfway, as mine did?
The definition of “support”
Now, I make my living in computers, so I understand as well as anyone that there are always caveats when it comes to dealing with technology, But this borders on false advertising. If a system is advertised as supporting 4 GB, that should mean that the system, all the way from the hardware up through to the OS, can actually use all 4 GB. If not, the system does not really support 4 GB. It supports 3 GB. It’s like buying a car that claims to support 4 wheels but finding out that there is only room for three wheels on the axels. The support for the fourth wheel comes via a spare mount on the roof.
The blame game
For a while I was trying to figure out who is to blame for the mess. It did occur to me that it might be my fault. I may be stupid, or uneducated. I am admittedly not a hardware expert. I know enough to be dangerous, as the saying goes. Eventually I discounted that. The consumer should not have to be an expert on a particular piece of hardware to be assured that they are getting what was advertised. Don’t we pay taxes and have laws for that sort of thing? So, if its not me, is it Intel’s fault for misleading verbiage about their chipset? Well, that’s a possibility.
However, Intel specifies in their chipset specifications that hey are using 32-bit memory addressing. This is located in section 4.2.4 of the Mobile Intel® 945 Express Chipset Family Datasheet. Also, Intel states that their components are just part of the system. They do not control what the system BIOS or operating systems shipped with the system do. I eventually discounted blaming Intel because in my particular case I did not buy the system from Intel.
I bought the system from Gateway, and they advertised the system as supporting 4 GB of memory. Gateway is the company I eventually wrote out the check to, so they are ultimately responsible for making sure that the systems they sell function as advertised.
Spreadin’ it around
I’ve been pretty hard on Gateway in this post, but they are certainly not the only system builder that would be affected by the issues discussed in the post. As I mentioned before, this is a widespread issue in the PC hardware community. It affects everyone from complete systems builders to motherboard manufacturers to VARs. The reason I am so <understatement>upset</understatement> with Gateway is that their tech support people tried to make it somehow my fault for hoping that a system advertised as supporting 4 GB of RAM could actually use 4 GM of RAM.
By the way, if anyone thinks that this was a fluke and has been corrected, think again. As of today (May 30, 2007) Gateway is still advertising the CX210X convertible notebook as supporting 4 GB of RAM when the only OS choices they offer for it are 32-bit OSes (Windows XP Tablet Edition and Vista 32-bit).
Closing remarks
This whole scenario should have been very simple. Get two memory modules, replace old memory with new memory, boot up computer, and use new memory. Instead, it turned into my personal version of the three hour tour. If anyone out there has had a similar experience, I welcome you to leave a comment. If anyone from Gateway is reading this, please comment. I hope I am one of the few to encounter such level off negative experience with your company. If anyone is reading this post and is planning to max out the memory in a system, be warned: don’t believe the system builder’s web sites, especially when crossing the 4 GB boundary.
I’m looking to get a CX210X myself and intend to stick to 32-bit OS for now. But I couldn’t help noticing a disclaimer Gateway has on their website when customizing the unit’s memory:
“Gateway recommends this system be configured with 2 memory modules for optimal system performance.
If you select 4096MB, the amount of available memory displayed will be less than 4096MB—unless you purchase and install a 64-bit Operating System.”
either a) you didnt actually install the 64 bit os, or
b) it is actual false advertizing.
Im guessing on the latter from what you wrote, and that disheartens me. I don’t want a vendor that doesnt know what its talking about. I guess I have nothing to say that can help, I just sorta fell bad. Maybe the chipset could be upgraded down the road to accomodate it?
nathanielmaciver, I am indeed using the 64-bit version of Vista. In fact, to make sure that it was not a Vista issue, I also tried booting from a 64-bit Linux LiveCD. Linux also saw only 3 GB of memory.
Gateway says that you need a 64-bit OS to get the full memory, but the only OS choices they offer are for 32-bit OSes. And, since I installed an OS that I did not purchase from them (because they did not and still do not offer an OS from their own disclaimer), they would not even help diagnose the issue.
I don’t know whether or not the chipset can be upgraded. I would think that it would require a different motherboard. But that’s just a guess so don’t quote me.
In any case, the laptop itself is pretty good, so long as you can live with a max of 3 GB of memory. I guess I will have to for the foreseeable future.
I just received a gateway NX860XL today. It was advertised the same way as you’ll only see the full 4GB with a 64 bit os. I purchased this laptop with 2GB of ram and purchased 2x2gb sodimms online (I’d much rather pay $250 to newegg than the $1350 gateway wanted for this upgrade!). I installed the memory and the bios post recognized all 4GB. I also did a HD upgrade and installed Windows Vista x64 Ultimate on the new drive. It’s a 64 bit OS and it still only see’s 3GB!!!
I have this OS installed at work on AMD and Intel motherboards that show the whole 4gb under the 64 bit OS’s. I’m thinking this is a phoenix bios issue. The workstation I use at work has a bios option to turn on remapping or some such which allows the OS to see the extra memory. I don’t see that option for the Phoenix bios. I think the bios on the work machines is AMI or something like that. I’ll have to check which chipsets we’re using at work. I know my workstation is AMD nforce 4, but I know we have some core 2 duo processors that support the whole 4gb.
The way this is now, maybe we should get a class-action suit together and go after gateway for false advertisement or something. It might force them to change their advertising or encourage a bios update to fix the issue.
Michael, you could be right about the BIOS. I also had another system that I installed a 64-bit OS on and had to turn on the memory remapping to see all 4 GB in the OS.
I don’t know how to even start the class action, but I would definitely go along with one. There is no excuse for something like this.
I recently bought 4GB of memory for my cx210x. Has this issue been resolved yet. I am running Vista Business 64-bit and it still only recognizes 3GB.
As far as I know the issue has not been resolved, nor is anything being done about it. Unfortunately you, I, and many other Gateway customers are out of luck.
I was also taken by surprise with Gateway’s “…unless you install a 64 bit Operating System” clause. And, worse, I confirmed it 2x with sales before I purchaed the cx210x, and 3 times with tech support after the purchase. I all instances, Gateway states “All 4 gigs will be seen by Windows Vista as long as it is 64bit”.
I am beyond angry with Gateway for deliberately misleading me- I paid an additional $2,800 to get 4gb of RAM at the time of purchase.
If anyone initiates a class action, I would most definitely want to participate.
I too was excited at the prospect of eventually upgrading to 4Gb in my CX210X. I’m still up in the air whether I should order a 2nd 2GB stick (to get the dual channel speed boost plug at least a gig of extra RAM) or whether I should just sell the thing (for probably half what I paid) and move on to something else. Overall I’ve enjoyed the thing although I should’ve gotten a faster CPU from the get go. I’ve got the latest BIOS from a month or two ago and I’d be willing to try updating again, but first I’m going to verify with support that they “do” support 4Gb, then I’m going to ream them a new one if it in fact doesn’t. Class action, count me in!
I would be thrilled if all I had to do to get the promised 4 GB RAM support was to update the BIOS. I tried that a couple of times without luck so my BIOS is probably one version behind the current one. If anyone actually gets the 4 GB RAM to work, please post the info here, or a link to it.
I’ve gotten so many comments on this post recently, I decided to do a quick search to see if others have had similar issues with Gateway laptops. Apparently many other people have. I found this post about the same exact issue on another Gateway laptop:
http://www.gripe2ed.com/scoop/story/2005/6/14/04126/2780
I have the same issue. What a disappointment after reformatting my PC to install Vista Business x64 only to find out that 4GB isn’t supported despite the posted specs. 🙁
what build BIOS version are you fellas using?
I noticed that there was a revision posted on the gateway website.
I’m using 78.11. They released version 78.13 a while ago, but I have not upgraded because they do not list the memory issue a fixed item in the release. Upgrading to 78.11 was very difficult on an x64 box because the upgrade utility does not run within an x64 OS.
Hi,
I have got HP nx7300, that comes also with 945 GM and HP claims to support 4 GB of RAM. (Remember that it is important what the final motherboard supports not the chipset itself.)
So, should I get 2 + 1 GB modules to get the maximum memory that one can get from this HW, or 2 + 2 will give me more… How about the speed in 1+2 configuration then?
I do not intend to use more than 32-bit OS.
Can somebody comment on this please?
maki,
I’m not familiar with the HP model, but I can tell you what I ended up getting for my Gateway. When I had the 2 x 2GB memory in the system, the system recognized 3070MB of RAM.
Then I ripped out one of the 2GB modules and replaced it with a 1GB module, leaving me with 2 + 1 GB in the system. At that point, the system still recognized 3070MB RAM. I have not seen any performance issues, but I have not looked as I don’t have too many options.
As far as 32-bit OS vs. a 64-bit OS, I would only use the 64-bit OS if your hardware actually supports the full 4 GB RAM. Otherwise, there is no point. You will also save yourself some application compatibility issues using a 32-bit OS.
Thank you.
I will be getting 2 + 1 then. I am sure it is going to be the same with HP. Shame that laptops are so stripped down compared to desktops. Maybe, one day…
interesting
http://www.tuaw.com/2006/11/15/tuaw-mythbusting-core-2-duo-with-3gb-ram-slower-than-with-2gb/
Very interesting. There was one comment that I think puts the whole memory performance question into perspective:
“I would think that in cases where you require 3 GB of RAM for an app, if there was a speed decrease when using mis-matched modules, it would still be at least an order of magnitude faster than swapping to the HDD.”
I myself have experienced this problem with my Gateway C-120. I have installed 4gb ram and it only recognizes 3 gb. This is very upsetting being that I am a student and saved up my money to buy this.
As a result of the problems with the CX210X, a class action lawsuit against Gateway is initiating. The law firm of Shepherd Finkelman Miller & Shah is handling claims of the possible class. If anyone is interested in sharing their experiences regarding RAM related capability in the CX210X or any other computer, you should contact Nathan Zipperian at 1-877-891-9880 or nzipperian@sfmslaw.com.
I will be watching how you get on, I have exactly the same problem with my ACER Travelmate 8210 which was sold as supporting 4GB but quote from support – “With in your machine you have the Intel 945PM Chipset. This supports the use of 4GB of RAM but does not support memory remapping, which is the reason for only showing 3GB within windows and also the BIOS. “
I read your thread too late! Shame! I have a Toshiba Satellite A200 12X. The vendor also claims that it can be upgraded up to 4GB of RAM, but as it happened to you, I bought 2 extra GB of RAM and my 64bit version of ubuntu and my 32 bit version of vista only recognize 3GB. I’ll try to let most people i can know about this. Thank you for the accurate explanation.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Its nice to know that other people have CX210Xs, but I would have preferred to find this before I bought a pair of 2gb sticks for mine. At least I’ve got 3gb…:(
I too have this problem but it’s with a GT4016 model. I installed 4gb of DDR1 400 ram and the bios is only showing 3.2gb instead, but yet under my computer in windows properties under Vista 64 shows that i have 4gb of ram. So i know that the ram isn’t the problem. The problem is Windows can’t use the extra ram because the bios won’t read it. So i’m only accessing 3gb of ram instead.
Steelcity, that’s an excellent observation. In fact I had discovered the same thing when working through my memory issues with this laptop. I posted more details about my findings here:
http://thingsthatshouldbeeasy.blogspot.com/2009/01/vista-reports-inaccurate-available.html
Thanks to your blog I was able to contact the lawyers that you provided and they are right on the case.
I provided the following…..
1. Snap shots of my Bios under the CMOS settings that show the total amount of memory.
2. Vista’s System Information.
3. Direct X System Information.
4. The Task Mangers, Physical Memory Information.
5. CPU-Z Memory Information.
6. A Faxed copy of my receipt that I bought the computer from.
If you have a Gateway computer that’s within 3 years of the purchase date and are running into the same problems, then just provide the same information above to the lawyers handling this case, which will give them enough evidence force Gateway to a settlement for your claim.
Hello,
I purchased two gateway M-285 laptops in Aug 2006 because it advertised it supported 4gigs of ram. Before actually purchasing the systems, I explicitly asked the sales representative if both of the ram modules were soldered onto the motherboard or not, and how easy it was to replace them (I planned on upgrading form the 1gig it came with to the 4 gig max for 64bit operations), the sales rep did not know the answer, so they had a tech representative call me back, and he told me about how it supports 4 gigs of ram and that it is the easy to replace pop in modules. That satisfied me, so I ordered.
Over the past 2 years, I’ve done countless hours of research on why this thing wouldn’t find the complete 4 gigs of ram that I upgraded to. I eventually discovered that the Intel 945GM motherboard in these computers do not support 4 gigs of ram (even if they do fit in them), only 3 are recognized. After all the problem solving, I switched back to Vista Ultimate 32bit because there’s no point in running 64bit OS without a min of 4GB of RAM.
I now have stumbled across this issue and the subsequent class action suit against Gateway, and I am certainly disturbed that gateway falsely advertised and lied to me when I ordered. I plan on trying to return this laptop via the claim form that is associated with this law suit (I never planned on upgrading both to 64bit systems, only one of them, so I only wish to return one), but I am unable to find any literature on any software that states 4 gigs of ram is recommended, even for 64bit versions. They all state that they require 1 or 2 gigs of ram, but we all know how terrifyingly slow Photoshop is with 1 gig of ram.
How do I meet the requirements:
“I also have attached proof of purchasing software or a similar program that required the use of 4gb of RAM either independently or in connection with the use of other software or program (e.g. a copy of packaging identifying the software or other programs and the RAM specifications required for such usage) to demonstrate that the Notebook could not be utilized for its intended purpose.”
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
D
Hdc4@hotmail.com
You should contact the lawyer listed at the top of the post for details.
Hello,
I have the 285E and I noticed the bios sees all 4 gigs of ram but windows only sees 2.99gigs. Have any of you found a work around for this? I purchased this thing because it said it can support upto 4 gigs. I do not see that no matter what I do.
Thanks
That was one the really frustrating things about the whole experience. The BIOS would properly detect and display that 4 GB RAM were installed. However, I saw that during the POST sequence, only 3 GB RAM were being checked.
Eventually I saw the disparity between the amount of memory that Vista saw was installed on the system vs. the amount of memory that Vista could actually address. I’ve detailed the discrepency here:
http://thingsthatshouldbeeasy.blogspot.com/2009/01/vista-reports-inaccurate-available.htmlBecause the memory was not checked during the boot process, and the hardware can not address the memory, I seriously doubt the operating system will ever be able to see it. I think you got were a victim of the same mis-representation as I was.
"However, Intel specifies in their chipset specifications that hey are using 32-bit memory addressing. This is located in section 4.2.4 of the Mobile Intel® 945 Express Chipset Family Datasheet."
Correct, the 945 and older chipsets have only 32 address lines, so they are limited to 4 GB of physical address space.
"Also, Intel states that their components are just part of the system. They do not control what the system BIOS or operating systems shipped with the system do. I eventually discounted blaming Intel because in my particular case I did not buy the system from Intel."
Wrong. As mentioned above, you are encountering a hardware limit that neither the BIOS or the OS can do anything about. So it is correct to blame the chipset. And while Intel don't make entire systems, most Intel processor PCs use Intel's chipsets.
Yuhong, the question of "blame" is not one of a component's technical limitations; it is a question of false advertising. Gateway advertised that their system, which is the sum of all components, had a particular feature (4 GB RAM support). Therefore Gateway is to blame if their system does not live up to the advertisement, regardless of which component had the limitation. Gateway could have selected an alternate chipset that had the appropriate memory addressing capabilities. But Gateway did not.
Furthermore, the question of blame is also a question of support. Gateway could have acknowledged their mistake in selecting a chipset that was not appropriate for their advertised laptop specifications. But, Gateway did not stand by their product. In fact, I even purchased an extended support package for the laptop. This behavior by a product company is unacceptable.
Cool yeah.. My brother has already told me that windows vista is not really work good. I preferred to windows 7. Thanks for some precautions!
I have the same problem as you described.
I own a laptop as Roger Samsó has and have the same issue. I still can't believe Toshiba can do this.
BTW, thanks for your advice!!